tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.comments2023-04-11T05:01:13.821-04:00Emerging BeachSteve W.http://www.blogger.com/profile/09210674047055815665noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-82469363319892214332011-09-11T15:18:01.801-04:002011-09-11T15:18:01.801-04:00Thanks, Steve, for reminding us to focus on what w...Thanks, Steve, for reminding us to focus on what we stand for more than what we stand against.<br /><br />Good insights from Lisa as well.<br /><br />The Other SteveSteve F.http://www.othersheep.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-91811551302033202952011-09-11T08:54:58.150-04:002011-09-11T08:54:58.150-04:00I agree that often I find within the emerging move...I agree that often I find within the emerging movement an arrogance that is somewhat disconcerting to me. I am going to go out on limb here and say, that I see that more in the younger members of the movement vs. the older members. Perhaps its because many of the younger people have not really been tested by life yet, have not found out that even with all the best of intentions, God (yes, I said God) and life will fall short of their 'expectations'. [note: I did not say God failed them; though it sure feels like he does when you're going through it, but God did not come through in the way one expected or demanded]. So in the younger folks, they are enthusiastic - full of energy, faith, passion, ideas and the mindset of 1+2=3; yet none of these have really, really been tested as of yet.<br /><br />The older generation, on the otherhand, have had their faith tested and crumbled. They have found themselves shipwrecked and alone in deep waters. They have found themselves disillusioned and disappointed by a system of "church" that has failed to give answers to tough life situations. And they end up angry and trapped by their own mindset. That takes time to "deconstruct". I had a counselor once tell me that I had to let go of everything that I have ever believed in, throw it all away, and to trust God to bring me back. That means different things to different folks, but for me, I had to let it all go, except for a few principals, that I did not let go. That was Micah 6:8 (and I had it memorized KJV, so bear with me...) He has shown you o man what is good. And what does the Lord require of thee? But to do justly, and love mercy, and walk humbly with your God." - That is what I took away. <br /><br />But as an older generation emerging Christian, I struggle more with the disillusionment and trying to forgive the failures of those that stayed in the mindset that was painful for me. And its is a lot harder to deconstruct, rebuild, and forgive. I may lack the fervor, passion, and drive that the younger guys have - for I've been knocked down and proven wrong a few times. So I have little room for pride. <br /><br />This is WHY we need all ages in our group - why I love the younger ones with their innocence and all their "pat answers"--- why they need us older ones, because we've been there, and know that life/God has a way of doing things completey different than we ever dreamed.<br /><br />But I am left thinking of I Corinthians 13 - we can have knowledge, gifts, passions, drive, answers, philosophies, theologies, etc., etc., --- but if we do not have love --- we are nothing but noice.<br /><br />Love you all more than you know as you each help me in my journey out of Egypt, thru the desert, and on to what is promised. Our hope.Lisa R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-68506291200644786322011-08-27T14:01:11.572-04:002011-08-27T14:01:11.572-04:00Tremendous post, Steve. Those two guys are very fo...Tremendous post, Steve. Those two guys are very fortunate to have you as their friend.Steve F.http://www.othersheep.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-12737813524181406102009-04-05T21:27:00.000-04:002009-04-05T21:27:00.000-04:00Wow....you make me sound cooler and smarter than I...Wow....you make me sound cooler and smarter than I actually am. That is pretty impressive.Robin S. Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214111339888756427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-40133336028924468942009-04-04T11:06:00.000-04:002009-04-04T11:06:00.000-04:00Great summary of the Meetup, Steve. You have a gr...Great summary of the Meetup, Steve. You have a great ability to take the very lively flow of the conversation and make it understandable. I'd say that you captured all the points. <BR/><BR/>I'll ponder the survy questions and future direction and be back in touch.<BR/><BR/>Steve F.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-35128718048892764682008-12-08T21:27:00.000-05:002008-12-08T21:27:00.000-05:00wow...that is seriously deep...where and with whom...wow...that is seriously deep...where and with whom are we expending our precious time...is it for greater community or greater economic security...or is it just mind numbing activity??<BR/><BR/>Thank you my friend...for being you and for challenging the norm..with your life and your thoughts.Robin S. Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214111339888756427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-22701513611615592352008-09-29T21:09:00.000-04:002008-09-29T21:09:00.000-04:00The sequel to “Pagan Christianity?” is out now. It...The sequel to “Pagan Christianity?” is out now. It’s called “Reimagining Church”. It picks up where “Pagan Christianity” left off and continues the conversation, going into organic church in much more detail. “Pagan Christianity” was never meant to be a stand alone book; it’s part one of the conversation. “Reimagining Church” is endorsed by Leonard Sweet, Shane Claiborne, Alan Hirsch, and many others. You can read a sample chapter at <BR/><A HREF="http://www.ReimaginingChurch.org" REL="nofollow">http://www.ReimaginingChurch.org</A><BR/>It’s also available on Amazon.com. Frank is also blogging now at <A HREF="http://www.frankviola.wordpress.com" REL="nofollow">http://www.frankviola.wordpress.com</A>. Also, have you seen the spoof video for "Pagan"? Very funny. Check it out at <A HREF="http://youtube.com/watch?v=hslswIal9u4" REL="nofollow">http://youtube.com/watch?v=hslswIal9u4</A>.Jilliefl1https://www.blogger.com/profile/11228287348231324439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-68803618516267125402008-09-22T07:59:00.000-04:002008-09-22T07:59:00.000-04:00Hi Guys,I am humbled by your thinking and intellig...Hi Guys,<BR/>I am humbled by your thinking and intelligence. Thank you for sharing and allowing me to be a part of this healthy and necessary conversation.<BR/><BR/>I think the authority is God the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit and The Bible.<BR/>From these we can determine that his purposes for us are to:<BR/><BR/>1)Worship/Magnify the Lord<BR/>2)Fellowship/community build and live in his family.<BR/>3)Discipleship-become like Christ; Christ follower.<BR/>4)Ministry-lay down our life for our brothers.....servanthood....having the same attitude as Christ.<BR/>5)Mission: Evangelize, seeking and winning the lost.<BR/><BR/>This is where we need to keep our focus regardless of denomination, movement etc.<BR/><BR/>I think this is what we need to call people back to, this is what we need to challenge our own walk and remind ourselves of. This is God's purpose for us and should be the goal in any system, program, denomination, movement, etc.<BR/><BR/>Has the Church been effective in this regard? As a whole I would say not anywhere close to what we should, but there are many examples in many denominations that the obvious answer would be yes!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-14983456882912279892008-09-21T10:29:00.000-04:002008-09-21T10:29:00.000-04:00P.S. I can also think of at least one very importa...P.S. I can also think of at least one very important reason, albeit very cynical, that institutional churches would have to perpetuate the need for "single source" authority...it keeps the money flowing. I realize that is a sweeping generalization and certainly not true of many well intentioned organizations.Steve W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09210674047055815665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-17397528374016573222008-09-21T07:30:00.000-04:002008-09-21T07:30:00.000-04:00Rob: I think you are absolutely right that there a...Rob: I think you are absolutely right that there are people who have not grown in their faith to the point where they don’t give in to the temptation to “shop around” for “…what their itching ears want to hear.” (II Timothy 4:3) And individual churches have been known to veer off in strange directions. That is again why staying in the vine is so vital. Without that, even whole denominations can also veer off into strange directions, and take their churches and congregations with them. One response I have to the individual “church shopper” dilemma is that if someone is interested in having no authority, then many large denominational churches are actually perfect places where some people can and do hide out for years. For them, the problem is not that they don’t have an “institutional” church authority, it’s that they don’t have close friends in the church (and here you can use the narrow definition of the group one meets with for an hour on Sunday, or the broader definition I have used) who they trust for advice. “Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed.” (Prov. 15:22) And they are not in such cases sincere in wanting to find the best direction they can for their lives. So, the answer does not have to be a single authority, but it has to be seeking authoritative counsel, with sincerity.<BR/><BR/>I’m also not saying all organization is bad. This could be taken as pretty “disorganized” though: “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26) What I am saying is this: At what point does the “organization” become the thing, versus the Holy Spirit being the thing? So, if the believer is staying part of the “true vine” (Christ) and does seek authoritative counsel in a variety of ways (as long as those authorities themselves stay in the vine), couldn’t that be a benefit in that they are less likely to fall prey to the errors of a single imperfect “authority?” Again, it’s a matter of perspective. Which is the greater danger? And where is found the greater benefit?<BR/><BR/>As I looked up references to authority I thought it was interesting that this exchange in Matthew 21 comes right after the withering of the fig tree: “Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. ‘By what authority are you doing these things?’ they asked. ‘And who gave you this authority?’ Jesus replied, ‘I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. John's baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?’ They discussed it among themselves and said, ‘If we say, 'From heaven,' he will ask, ‘Then why didn't you believe him?' But if we say, 'From men'—we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.’ So they answered Jesus, ‘We don't know.’ Then he said, ‘Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.’”<BR/><BR/>Good point regarding “old” versus “new” conventions. I probably should not have even used an oxymoronic phrase like “new conventions.” There is always the risk, and it happens all the time, that the something new does become a convention making it just as calcified as the old one is which it sought to change. A good example is the very evolution of many denominations. I join with those who hope the emerging church movement never becomes its own denomination. And I agree with you that every new thing should be checked out for both its usefulness and shortcomings, just like every old thing should. Thank you for helping me check all this out.Steve W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09210674047055815665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-73921303832199885182008-09-20T10:12:00.000-04:002008-09-20T10:12:00.000-04:00Steve, very interesting post (and you did convey t...Steve, very interesting post (and you did convey the essence of our lunch conversation). You said a lot in that post, and I haven't thought this all the way through yet (so I’m bound to misstate or oversimplify some of what you wrote), but I just wanted to throw this out for thought. You wrote, "My 'church authority' might include all of the sources mentioned above [scripture, tradition, pastors, the Holy Spirit] and I might add to that, my friend[s]... At other times, my church authority might extend to trusted authors or bloggers who have sewn into my life."<BR/><BR/>This sounds like a very inclusive, broad-minded way of thinking about the sources the Lord may use to work in and through you. Sounds like. But couldn't it also be (and I'm not saying it is, to you) just another way of saying you accept no authority accept the one(s) you happen to find legitimate or even just attractive at any given time in your life? That may seem like an extreme (and exaggerated) statement, but think about all the church-hoppers you and I have both known (and may have been) in our lives. Or the non-denominational churches that answer to no authority but their own and are (rightly, I think) criticized as being cult-like, or just plain cults. I find your message attractive in the abstract, but troubling as I think of the concrete applications and ramifications. We may well be like a grapevine in the eyes of God, even when we're trying our best to hold on to sound teaching, doctrine, and tradition, and to be a faithful, unified church under one Head, Christ. But does that mean we should aspire to disorganization? Think how that model would affect the thinking (about authority, doctrine, tradition -which Paul commended one congregation for holding to) of a new believer. To look at it from a practical perspective, would you want to try to do your job under such a structure? Remember the scene from Office Space, "You know how many bosses I've got, Bob? Eight. Eight! That means when I screw up, I've gotta hear about it from eight different people!" (I know that’s not what you meant; merely adding numerically to the authorities God has given. But it could well be taken that way by people who haven’t walked with the Lord as long –and, I would add, faithfully– as you.) But, I’m more concerned it could be used as a license to not submit to any authority (apart from our always incomplete and often just plain wrong thoughts about God) one doesn’t happen to like. I know there is always the possibility that we are told to reject someone or some structure’s authority over us (though I find it interesting that David didn’t reject Saul’s authority even when he was throwing spears at him, and didn’t even leave his service until he was actively trying to kill him), but I do think God’s call to do that is a LOT rarer than we already believe. Adopting your perspective of who is an authority would, I fear (I’m not afraid to admit my fear in this matter), make the word authority essentially meaningless.<BR/><BR/>You concluded, "Ultimately, if we simply dismiss new conventions, we discount the value of any religious writing, art, thought, or practice after the last words in Revelation (or even the four Gospels)." I just wanted to clarify (as I don't think it was clear in your post) that I am not merely dismissive of new conventions, but I am cautious about embracing them with abandon and little or no thought about their utility and consequences. I'd go one further, though, and say that had you used the word "old" rather than "new" (before "conventions") in the quote above, you'd have made my argument for me.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17226043171593157504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-57435353803430199772008-09-07T08:53:00.000-04:002008-09-07T08:53:00.000-04:00Excellent post, Steve. I remember when Hurricane ...Excellent post, Steve. <BR/><BR/>I remember when Hurricane Wilma left my home and office without power for two weeks. I worried, fretted, lost lots of business and money. I also learned my neighbors' names for literally the first time - though we'd lived side by side over a decade. (Shame on me.) I took walks with my kids - we didn't want to use the precious gas for which we'd waited in line for hours. We went out at night and saw STARS! since there was no light pollution. We simply sat together and read by candlelight in the warm, humid, un-air conditioned house. We relied on friends for basics.<BR/><BR/>Steve... it was glorious. I was almost sad when the power came back on. I vowed not to allow the rat race to re-enter my spirit. Yet today, as I watch Hurricane Ike, I know that I am back where I was - worried about how much money and productivity I'll lose if it hits.<BR/><BR/>No - I never want to live through another direct hit from a hurricane. Even in the glory, it was dreadful. But I would love to live with that peace and trust.<BR/><BR/>The spirit is willing... but the flesh is weak.<BR/><BR/>Steve F.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-89281439851635318972008-08-30T13:14:00.000-04:002008-08-30T13:14:00.000-04:00I accidently set up two accounts...this is the one...I accidently set up two accounts...this is the one I want to us. It has the cool picture. :)Robin S. Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214111339888756427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-7079907088961718392008-08-30T13:13:00.000-04:002008-08-30T13:13:00.000-04:00Wow...you saved the best for last. It has been a w...Wow...you saved the best for last. It has been a wonderful journey of faith to see your (our) church walls expand and blur. <BR/><BR/>I am moved by God's presence and His interaction when those seeking Him gather together. Thank you for being a part of that...Robin S. Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214111339888756427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-54979359435826853492008-08-30T13:10:00.000-04:002008-08-30T13:10:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06272403461834221274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-15797122788900507302008-06-30T15:15:00.000-04:002008-06-30T15:15:00.000-04:00Well Said. I wish you the best with the Broward Co...Well Said. I wish you the best with the Broward Cohort.Joe G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01726368157943822521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7250749721553615661.post-9284555824739420142008-06-25T22:28:00.000-04:002008-06-25T22:28:00.000-04:00It has been a wonderful journey to walk with you i...It has been a wonderful journey to walk with you in Christ. I look forward to our exciting adventures in emergent conversations...Robin S. Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214111339888756427noreply@blogger.com